the great debate

[jwgh]

[Poll #925685]

Defend your position in the comments!

(Tik-Tok's a robot, obviously. But what happens if he's sprinkled with the Powder of Life?)

Important Breaking News: Project Gutenberg has 'The Wonderful Wizard of Oz' available for free onliine, which allowed me to find this possibly relevant excerpt:

"Oh, I see," said the Tin Woodman. "But, after all, brains are not the best things in the world."
"Have you any?" inquired the Scarecrow.
"No, my head is quite empty," answered the Woodman. "But once I had brains, and a heart also; so, having tried them both, I should much rather have a heart."

Comments

[kerri9494.livejournal.com]

He's not a robot, because a robot is a) all machine, and 2) programmable. Since the Tin Man ain't got circuits, he ain't no robot. It does make one wonder, since he doesn't have a heart, how much of him is human, but I guess that doesn't much matter, since he ain't got circuits.

A cyborg is trickier...but no. A cyborg is a human with 'extra' powers, such as the Bionic woman -- added functionality that exceeds what a human could do. I don't think the steam hat of the Tin Man really counts as that. Not only does he not have extra-human powers, he's kinda limited because he's missing certain abilities, and isn't really human at all.

My guess is, for people who need LABELS, the Tin Man is an 'animate object'. He was an inanimate object that was given 'life' by the Powder of Life. That is all I know. Thank you!

[jwgh]

The Tin Man was originally a person, but he kept lopping pieces off and having them replaced with tin. It's not clear to me whether he has any organic components left -- maybe his brane, but since the rest of his head was replaced maybe not too.

Tik-Tok uses clockwork, not circuits.

[kerri9494.livejournal.com]

So wait...where'd his heart go?

[jwgh]

"Come in," called Oz, and the Woodman entered and said, "I have come for my heart."

"Very well," answered the little man. "But I shall have to cut a hole in your breast, so I can put your heart in the right place. I hope it won't hurt you."

"Oh, no," answered the Woodman. "I shall not feel it at all."

So Oz brought a pair of tinsmith's shears and cut a small, square hole in the left side of the Tin Woodman's breast. Then, going to a chest of drawers, he took out a pretty heart, made entirely of silk and stuffed with sawdust.

"Isn't it a beauty?" he asked.

"It is, indeed!" replied the Woodman, who was greatly pleased. "But is it a kind heart?"

"Oh, very!" answered Oz. He put the heart in the Woodman's breast and then replaced the square of tin, soldering it neatly together where it had been cut.

"There," said he; "now you have a heart that any man might be proud of. I'm sorry I had to put a patch on your breast, but it really couldn't be helped."

[jwgh]

Wait, this is more relevant:

"I was born the son of a woodman who chopped down trees in the forest and sold the wood for a living. When I grew up, I too became a woodchopper, and after my father died I took care of my old mother as long as she lived. Then I made up my mind that instead of living alone I would marry, so that I might not become lonely.

"There was one of the Munchkin girls who was so beautiful that I soon grew to love her with all my heart. She, on her part, promised to marry me as soon as I could earn enough money to build a better house for her; so I set to work harder than ever. But the girl lived with an old woman who did not want her to marry anyone, for she was so lazy she wished the girl to remain with her and do the cooking and the housework. So the old woman went to the Wicked Witch of the East, and promised her two sheep and a cow if she would prevent the marriage. Thereupon the Wicked Witch enchanted my axe, and when I was chopping away at my best one day, for I was anxious to get the new house and my wife as soon as possible, the axe slipped all at once and cut off my left leg.

"This at first seemed a great misfortune, for I knew a one-legged man could not do very well as a wood-chopper. So I went to a tinsmith and had him make me a new leg out of tin. The leg worked very well, once I was used to it. But my action angered the Wicked Witch of the East, for she had promised the old woman I should not marry the pretty Munchkin girl. When I began chopping again, my axe slipped and cut off my right leg. Again I went to the tinsmith, and again he made me a leg out of tin. After this the enchanted axe cut off my arms, one after the other; but, nothing daunted, I had them replaced with tin ones. The Wicked Witch then made the axe slip and cut off my head, and at first I thought that was the end of me. But the tinsmith happened to come along, and he made me a new head out of tin.

"I thought I had beaten the Wicked Witch then, and I worked harder than ever; but I little knew how cruel my enemy could be. She thought of a new way to kill my love for the beautiful Munchkin maiden, and made my axe slip again, so that it cut right through my body, splitting me into two halves. Once more the tinsmith came to my help and made me a body of tin, fastening my tin arms and legs and head to it, by means of joints, so that I could move around as well as ever. But, alas! I had now no heart, so that I lost all my love for the Munchkin girl, and did not care whether I married her or not. I suppose she is still living with the old woman, waiting for me to come after her.

"My body shone so brightly in the sun that I felt very proud of it and it did not matter now if my axe slipped, for it could not cut me. There was only one danger—that my joints would rust; but I kept an oil-can in my cottage and took care to oil myself whenever I needed it. However, there came a day when I forgot to do this, and, being caught in a rainstorm, before I thought of the danger my joints had rusted, and I was left to stand in the woods until you came to help me. It was a terrible thing to undergo, but during the year I stood there I had time to think that the greatest loss I had known was the loss of my heart. While I was in love I was the happiest man on earth; but no one can love who has not a heart, and so I am resolved to ask Oz to give me one. If he does, I will go back to the Munchkin maiden and marry her."

[peachcrush.livejournal.com]

Very interesting! I'm glad you posted this.

[kerri9494.livejournal.com]

Hmm. But how did he LIVE? Does he still have all of his neurology intact?

I dunno. I see cyborgs as hu-mans with sort of supplemental electronics, not analog prosthetics. There's nothing electronic about his tin stuff, so even though I was wrong about his humanity...I'm still sticking with OTHER.

[jwgh]

Hmm. Tik-Tok's all analog, as far as I can tell. Would you say he's not a robot? (Baum himself didn't use the term, but the word 'robot' wasn't invented until 1920, while Tik-Tok was introduced in 1907, so that doesn't signify one way or another.)

[kerri9494.livejournal.com]

Tough call. I think for me, at least, a 'robot' needs electrical circuits of some sort, and needs to be mechanical, and needs to have some sort of Turing-complete programming applied to it. :-) Tik-Tok is mechanical, yes, but how does he know how to speak and stuff? I guess if he's got a complete neural system (implying 'electrical' circuitry the way that humans also have electrical circuitry), then he'd meet the definition of robot. But just because he's made of metal and talks doesn't necessarily make him a robot. Maybe an android? I dunno!

[plorkwort.livejournal.com]

Technicly, a cyborg is a cybernetic organism - a biological thing with an engineered feedback/control system. The "teleological mechanism," in Norbert Wiener's phrase, could be anything nonbiological -- mechanical, electrical, relays, circuits, etc.

[cgoldfish.livejournal.com]

cyborg. he's got human in him - somewhere. or else he's just a brane with a huge prosthetic.

[refuz.livejournal.com]

I believe that his ability to produce steam from his head is proof that he is in fact a robot. If he were a cyborg he would need, at the very least, to have a brain and spinal cord, as well as some form of a support system for these human components.

Since the tin man is obviously some steam powered (populists steam punk) mechanical man he not only lacks a human brain but if his preasure release valve is located in his head that doensn't leave a particularly friendly environment for human tissue.

Therefore the Tin Man is in fact a steam powered Robot.
oh and he is totally run by clockwork.
My computer is on top of "The Cyborg Handbook" right now.

[katrinkles.livejournal.com]

he's a cyborg.
dorothy says herself in return to oz that he used to be a man but the witch turned him into tin.
'nuff said.

[plant-geek.livejournal.com]

ok so, he used to be a man, but little by little he lost parts and replaced them with tin and now has no human parts left- so, not a robot (the point made about him not having circuits and not being programable is a good one), but he's not really a cyborg either b/c he's got no human left (except, he kinda has a soul, right? does that count?)

I'd call him

[vardissakheli.livejournal.com]

more of a golem.

However, thinking about his human origin, I'm also thinking I need to reread Harry Harrison and Marvin Minsky's The Turing Option.

[saucypunk.livejournal.com]

so my impression of "cyborg" (coming from a social studies perspective, anyway) is that it refers to the blending of human and mechanical identities -- so technically someone with a pacemaker is a cyborg. in that sense i'd say he's definitely a cyborg, because both his human identity and his tin identity are essential parts of his persona.

[plant-geek.livejournal.com]

you are such a grad student- it's great :)

[saucypunk.livejournal.com]

i enjoy it.

(seriously, i had to read an article on cyborg identities in a class i took in undergrad called "Race, Gender, and Community in the Latina Autobiography" and none of us had any idea what the fuck anyone was talking about. i kind of feel like i should go back and read more about the whole cyborg-as-social-identity thing though.)

[plorkwort.livejournal.com]

Was it Donna Haraway? One needs to be a cyborg with alien parts machined out of pure wackiness to understand much of what she is talking about much of the time.

[fredfred.livejournal.com]

The Tin Man is definitely a cyborg from our POV, though lacking any human part, he does meet the human part test if you stretch the definition of human part to include his animating spirit (not scientifically valid, but then, this is Oz, not the so-called Real World), which is definitely human.

Tik-Tok is clearly a robot.

[sanspoof.livejournal.com]

I agree with this assessment; it's the won't-die bit-by-bit replacement scheme for mind transference.

Alternately, I also like the oz-logic that a representation of a thing is as good as the original; this is relevant here. When the tin man's parts were replaced, they were replaced equivalently, as far as he or apparently anyone cared. So really he is maybe a metal man, which is the same, effectively, as a regular man, but with no heart (until he is given one). Except for all that rust.

[jwgh]

I think I agree with this -- he's either a cyborg (if you count 'animating spirit' as being human/biological) or a metal man [neither robot nor cyborg but just a different kind of person] if not.

[sanspoof.livejournal.com]

I think it is important to look at it both in a real-world way and an in-universe way. And that is why it was an awesome poll.

[jwgh]

I was hoping it would be this successful!

[jwgh]

I'm still curious as to what would happen if Tik-Tok got the Powder of Life sprinkled on him. I guess the best case scenario is that he would no longer need to get would up. Maybe he would get emotions too. But he was always happy to not be alive, so it seems like it would be a cruel experiment to perform.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

I imagined a sort of possession/zombie scenario--Tik-Tok would suddenly be subject to two warring personae: that animated by his clockwork mechanisms, and a spirit of the living substance of his body endowed by the Powder of Life. The motions induced by the latter would strip his gears, and the original Tik-Tok would die horribly, his nonfunctioning corpse animated by the usurper in Gumplike fashion...

[plant-geek.livejournal.com]

either way, i like tik-tok better than the tin man

[refuz.livejournal.com]

It is entirely possible to create a programmable Turing Machine using entirely mechanical components. It isn't as easy as using digital parts and it would take up more space but it is totally possible to create an analog programmable machine

What is a neural system except bunches of yes no gates that can be simulated using gates and switches

Definitions

Cyborg
Robot
Android


So based on this and based on the fact that the tin man had his entire body replaced with tin parts (including his head and heart) I would say that the tin man is an Android.
If he had some kind of organics in his body then I would agree that he is a cyborg but since it says that his parts were replaced and not adapted with tin or altered with tin he lacks the organic components necessary to qualify as a cyborg.
Granted there is some room for questions as far as the imprinting of a human personality onto a computer would qualify as an organic component but for the most part that concept would indicate that he was completely inorganic when the imprinting process occurred..

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

The Tin Man is posthuman.