I hate hate hate windows

[jwgh]

I fully admit that this is a matter of tastes and that other people might actually like the Windows GUI paradigm. (However, those people are WRONG.)

OK, so what's with the hate? A lot of Windows programs have this sort of program-centric idea where you've got one big window that belongs to the program, and any other windows that belong to the program live in that window and can't move outside it. The big master window, and possibly some or all of the little sub-windows inside it, have their own menu bars and their own minimize/maximize/close buttons.

I really hate this.

I prefer an OS where a program's windows are all independent and where windows from one program can overlap the windows of another program and can be spread about madly all over the screen. I find it makes it easier for me to switch between applications to find exactly the one thing you want and it somehow feels less cramped to me. The Windows model seems to encourage having all your windows maximized all the time so you can put the little sub-windows where you want them. Which is a style I also dislike.

(I should note that there are Mac programs that use this design. All of the ones I've run into that aren't games, and even some of the ones that are games, allow you to turn it off, though, which I always do.)

The other thing I don't like is the idea that closing the main window of a program means that you exit out of it. Some programs (like the one I've been struggling with in Windows today) take a long time to start up, and clicking on a single button with an odd little icon on it seems like a bad way to exit out of such programs.

Especially if all your windows are maximized all the time, and so you have your big uber-window filling up your whole screen and then another little subwindow maximized to take up all the uberwindow's screen space so that there's about a quarter inch of space separating you from closing a single window and quitting out of the program altogether. That's just really not a good thing at all. In my opinion.

Arrrrr.

Comments

[pootrootbeer.livejournal.com]

From what I've heard, Microsoft is currently discouraging the MDI windows-within-windows paradigm you rightfully hate so much.

Then again, it was Microsoft themselves that came up with it, implemented it in all their flagship apps, and encouraged everyone else to follow suit in the FIRST place in the mid-90s.

Also, adding a "kill" button to the corner of every window starting with Windows 95 was the worst mistake in Windows UI history. Especially since most apps don't even pop an "Are you sure?" dialog when it's clicked.

[palecur.livejournal.com]

Programs that don't behave the way you hate make my nerves twitch in fear and loathing. ALL THINGS RELATING TO ONE PROGRAM BELONG IN ONE CONTAINER.

I don't want to have to seek through 18 tiny little floating windows to find the toolbar I want. CENTRALISATION IS PARAMOUNT.

And of COURSE you want your windows maximised all the time. This minimises visual clutter. alt-tab to switch apps and focus on one thing at a time, LIKE GOD INTENDED.

I guess my authoritarian approach to GUI design belies my lolbertarian approach to personal governance.

Re:

[sunburn.livejournal.com]

I prefer the Windows approach, in tandem with the taskbar. I donut like that Mac windows cannot always be persuaded to fill the screen, at least in my experience. (I have no experience with OSX.) However, I can safely say that I use a minumum of programs that use multiple windows. Sure, I use programs that can have, say, multiple documents or browser windows open, but all of those programs have internal navigation methods. The ones that do this most poorly are MS Office apps, but that's been fixed, such that multiple documents now appear in the taskbar (XP only), if you haven't disabled that feature like I have. But I rarely use things like Photoshop and GIMP, which like to have a menagerie of toolbars floating around in addition to work windows. I don't like it because they drift in front of the -- wait for it -- maximized work area, and there's no provision I'm aware of to force them to hug the sides of the screen, and/or to prevent the work area from passing underneath them.

Okay.

[rimrunner.livejournal.com]

My theory is that it's a plot to get people to buy more monitors.

Would 'splain why Erik has three of 'em hooked up to one machine.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

In general, you'll prefer whatever user interface paradigm you are used to.

(However, Tog insists that Fitt's Law makes the single top-of-screen menubar inherently and provably superior. It also follows, though, that it would get less superior as the screen gets larger.)

But Windows gives you BOTH WAYS!

[vardissakheli.livejournal.com]

I have half a dozen independent Mozilla windows open RIGHT NOW IYKWIM AITYD, for instance. Or multiple documents can be open in separate panes of a window--sometimes with tabs, as in Mozilla's tabbed browsing. Also, since Win95, programs have been able to open subordinate windows that are "always on top" but not geometrically attached to the main window, like Lotus products' "properties" popups.

I find the subwindow behavior extremely startling in some programs (like the MIDI editor I use, Passport MIDI Workshop) but not at all in others (like the graphic editor I use, MicroGrafx Picture Publisher). I don't know what it is that makes my expectations different. One application for subwindows that does seem completely sensible to me is document open/close/save dialogs. Letting those stray from the main window could be very confusing--though, OTOH, I've happily used them independently of Netscape/Mozilla's main windows for years now.

I do like the idea of allowing programs to stay open with no windows left, but I find Windows's implementation (tray icons) annoying and MacOS's (whatever they call that pulldown list on the status bar) confusing. Maybe what would bug me less is an option to create a "main task" window that's always of minimum size and can be hidden/minimized like any other window. One way you could DIY would be to create a shortcut to open some tiny document in the application, and just leave that document open until you want to quit the app entirely.

I think I've actually seen an option to choose whether to use subwindows or separate windows in one program I've used, but I don't remember what it was. I wouldn't mind having it as a more generalized feature of the GUI, actually. Drag windows with related tasks into one superwindow, so I can minimize that window and hide them all. Also have an option to make the superwindow transparent, so other tasks can be visible at the same time. Like a Boss Button, but in reverse--hide all 32 chat windows in one shot and leave only the 17 work-related windows visible.

Re: But Windows gives you BOTH WAYS!

[sunburn.livejournal.com]

Just make a desktop wallpaper that resembles work, and if the boss drops by, hit WindowsKey-D and blammo, you appear to be working. From there you can use Taskbar or whatnot to restore a more, erm, interactive work-related window.

At least with the Windows windows-within-Window setup, you can vanish 100% of your IRC windows instantly by minimizing mIRC or whatnot.

However, yeah, making the superwindow transparent is an excellent idea, though I'd add the (optional?) limitation of having it filter out things like icons on the desktop, since the background of the superwindow could be differently-functional than the uncovered desktop, and you don't want get confused into thinking you'll get the expected desktop behavior should you, accidentally or on purpose, click-drag a file or other icon on the desktop. (Knowing Microsoft, they'll probably make the default behavior such that you can pick up stuff from your desktop, but if you drop it, you'll be dropping it into the current application, which will open the desktop file as it does any file dropped onto the application.)

Re: But Windows gives you BOTH WAYS!

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

A lot of things changed on the Mac with the coming of Mac OS X. There's now the concept of a "sheet" which is a thing that pops down from the title bar of an open window; newer apps now use those for save dialogs, or anything that is to do with a specific currently open document. It's fairly elegant.

Also, they got rid of the application switcher menu and replaced it with the Dock. There are lots of things I don't like about the Dock, but I supplement it with a most excellent shareware application called DragThing that is an almost infinitely reconfigurable launcher/switcher/dock gadget.